Turkey Breakfast
But according to Turkey, the PKK is a terrorist organization? Let's take a look at three sources, Globalsecurity.org, Federation of American Scientists (fas.org) and the Council on Foreign Relations
Globalsecurity.org:
Partiya Karkeran Kurdistan [PKK]
Established in 1974 as a Marxist-Leninist insurgent group primarily composed of Turkish Kurds, by the late 1990s the PKK had moved beyond rural-based insurgent activities to include urban terrorism. The PKK sought to set up an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey, where there is a predominantly Kurdish population.
Kurdistan Workers' Party
People's Defense ForceGeography, politics and history have conspired to render 30 million Kurds the largest stateless people in the Middle East. The Government of Turkey has long denied the Kurdish population, located largely in the southeast, basic political, cultural, and linguistic rights.
Since 1984 the separatist PKK waged a violent terrorist insurgency in southeast Turkey, directed against both security forces and civilians, almost all of them Kurds, whom the PKK accuses of cooperating with the State. The government of Turkey in turn waged an intense campaign to suppress PKK terrorism, targeting active PKK units as well as persons they believe support or sympathize with the PKK. In the process, both government forces and PKK terrorists committed human rights abuses against each other and noncombatants. According to the Government, from 1984 through November 1997, 26,532 PKK members, 5,185 security force members, and 5,209 civilians lost their lives in the fighting.
The PKK committed numerous abuses against civilians in northern Iraq throughout 1997. For example, on August 4, five persons were reportedly kidnaped from the village of Gunda Jour by a PKK band. Iraqi Kurds reported that on October 23, a PKK unit killed 14 civilians (10 of them children) and wounded 9 others in attacks on the villages of Korka, Chema, Dizo, and Selki. On December 13, seven Assyrian civilians reportedly were ambushed and killed near the village of Mangeesh. Many villagers in Dohuk and Irbil provinces, particularly those from isolated areas, were reported to have abandoned their homes and temporarily relocated to cities and lager towns to escape PKK attacks.
Abdullah OCALAN, was captured in Kenya in February 1999. The PKK observed a unilateral cease-fire since September 1999, although there have been occasional clashes between Turkish military units and some of the 4,000-5,000 armed PKK militants, most of whom currently are encamped in northern Iraq.
NOT GOOD GUYS
Kongra-Gel was founded by Abdullah Ocalan in 1974 as a Marxist-Leninist separatist organization and formally named the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) in 1978. The group, composed primarily of Turkish Kurds, began in 1984 its campaign of armed violence, which has resulted in some 30,000 casualties. The PKK’s goal has been to establish an independent Kurdish state in southeast Turkey, northern Iraq, and parts of Iran and Syria. In the early 1990s, the PKK moved beyond rural-based insurgent activities to include urban terrorism. Turkish authorities captured Ocalan in Kenya in early 1999, and the Turkish State Security Court subsequently sentenced him to death, a sentence later commuted to life imprisonment following the abolition of the death penalty. In August 1999, Ocalan announced a "peace initiative," ordering members to refrain from violence and requesting dialogue with Ankara on Kurdish issues. At a PKK Congress in January 2000, members supported Ocalan’s initiative and claimed the group now would use only political means to achieve its public goal of improved rights for Kurds in Turkey. In April 2002 at its 8th Party Congress, the PKK changed its name to the Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (KADEK) and proclaimed a commitment to non-violent activities in support of Kurdish rights. In late 2003, the group sought to engineer another political face-lift, renaming itself Kongra-Gel (KGK) and promoting its "peaceful" intentions while continuing to conduct attacks in "self-defense" and to refuse disarmament. In June 2004, the group’s hard-line militant wing, the People’s Defense Force (HPG), which had taken control of the group in February 2004, renounced the PKK’s self-imposed cease-fire of the past five years.
Activities
Primary targets have been Turkish Government security forces, local Turkish officials, and villagers who oppose the organization in Turkey. The group conducted attacks on Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities in dozens of West European cities in 1993 and again in spring 1995. In an attempt to damage Turkey’s tourist industry, the then-PKK bombed tourist sites and hotels and kidnapped foreign tourists in the early-to-mid-1990s.
Doesn't sound much like an alliance for us, right there. And after the war in Iraq began, they went back to old habits of murder.
Turkish authorities have confirmed or suspect that the group is responsible for dozens of bombings that occurred throughout 2005 in western Turkey, particularly in Istanbul, but also in resort areas on the western coast where foreign tourists, among others, were killed. There also were dozens of military clashes between Turkish security forces and KGK militants.
Strength
Approximately 4,000 to 5,000, of whom 3,000 to 3,500 currently are located in northern Iraq.
CFR -
Inside the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)
Recent attacks on Turkish soldiers, and new vows to target politicians and police, have further infuriated Ankara. Yet the group, which formed decades ago to win an independent Kurdish state, has been greatly diminished in more than thirty years of resistance. Originally a well-oiled guerrilla force of some fifty thousand men and women, analysts today estimate the force is between three thousand and five thousand fighters. Nonetheless, with cross-border rhetoric increasing, some analysts say the PKK has reached a sort of equilibrium, thanks in part to its mountainous redoubts in northern Iraq, and the Bush administration’s unwillingness to put pressure on Iraq to curb the group’s attacks.Therefore, while it is my judgment that on balance the people of America would be better off in the short and medium term, and perhaps in the long term as well, if a free democratic Kurdistan existed where it's people are and have been for a MILLENNIUM, the PKK is nobody to support in any way. It would be best if the Kurds in Iraq put a stop to the cross border actions of the PKK out of enlightened self interest. If they do not our pressure should be brought to bear to BRING THIS ABOUT. If that fails, armed force and actions by US special forces should follow immediately against the PKK. Nothing the PKK is doing enhances what we need in any way, and much of what we need is of immediate benefit to the Kurds of northern Iraq.Why They Fight
The PKK was formed with Marxist-Leninist roots in 1974 and, until recently, sought to create an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey and parts of neighboring countries inhabited by Kurds. Today the aim is more in line with winning some level of autonomy. Often described as the world’s largest stateless population, there are roughly thirty million Kurds linked by ethnicity and language who hail from Kurdistan, a region spanning eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, western Iran, and parts of Syria and Armenia. James Brandon, a senior research fellow at the Center for Social Cohesion in London, writes that the PKK has refocused its message in recent years with the hopes of winning “civil rights and some level of autonomy.” The aim, Brandon notes, is for Kurds to live under a system where they would “rule themselves within a Turkish state.”
How They Fight
Nearly a decade after its founding, the group turned to terrorist tactics in the mid-1980s, relying on guerrilla warfare that included kidnappings of foreign tourists in Turkey, suicide bombings, and attacks on Turkish diplomatic offices in Europe. The PKK has also repeatedly attacked civilians who refuse to assist it. As fighting reached a peak in the mid-1990s, thousands of villages were destroyed in southeast and eastern Turkey. The PKK launched most of its attacks on Turkish security forces, but also attacked other Turkish sites at home and abroad, as well as Kurdish civilians who would not cooperate with the group. An estimated thirty-seven thousand people have been killed in the fighting.
Turkish experts on terrorism have linked suicide bombs targeting local governors and police installations to the PKK. The PKK has also raided villages and small towns. In 1993, the PKK launched coordinated attacks involving firebombs and vandalism on Turkish diplomatic and commercial offices in six West European countries. PKK operatives have used bombs and grenades at tourist sites in Istanbul and at Turkish seaside resorts. They have also kidnapped Western tourists (who were subsequently released) to attract publicity. During fighting in southeast Turkey, PKK terrorists also killed civilians and village guards loyal to the Turkish government.
A crushing Turkish military crackdown and the February 1999 capture of the PKK’s leader, Abdullah Ocalan, led the group’s remaining fighters to withdraw to northern Iraq and its leadership to renounce armed struggle and reconstitute itself as a political party. The Turkish government, however, continues to regard the PKK as a terrorist group. The United States—one of Turkey’s NATO allies—lists the PKK as a foreign terrorist organization. The group observed a five-year cease-fire, during which it sought to rebrand itself as a peaceful organization. But in 2004, largely due to failed efforts to reinvent, the group called off its cease-fire and returned to guerilla tactics; fighting have been rising steadily in Turkey’s southeast region ever since. A spike in violence in 2007, including the killing of thirty Turkish soldiers and civilians in October, has prompted (CSMonitor) Turkey’s call for revenge.
Leadership and Reach
Ocalan, a Turkish Kurd who discovered Marxism as a university student in Ankara in the 1970s, has led the PKK from its founding. Known to his supporters as “Apo,” Ocalan lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon until October 1998, when the Syrians, feeling international pressure and fearing Turkish military action, forced the Kurdish rebels to leave. Ocalan then unsuccessfully sought asylum in several European and African countries. In February 1999, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya, he was captured and taken by Turkish forces. A Turkish court convicted Ocalan of treason and sentenced him to death. The sentence has not been carried out, nor has it been commuted; Ocalan appealed the decision to the European Court of Human Rights. Ocalan remains imprisoned on the island of Imrali, in the Sea of Marmara near Istanbul.
Yet despite Ocalan’s continued imprisonment, the PKK continues to maintain a popular following, in Turkey and throughout Europe. During the Kurdish spring festival, Kurds “regularly take to the streets proclaiming their support” (BBC) for Ocalan. In recent years, sister organizations have also sprung up, including the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan, or PJAK, which launches similar strikes inside Iran. Both groups are believed to be based together in valleys surrounding Mount Qandil on the Iranian border in Iraq.
Turkish Views on Kurdish Separatism
Like other Middle Eastern countries with Kurdish minorities, Turkey sees Kurdish nationalism as a threat to its national security and to the modern borders drawn up after World War I. This fear is particularly acute in Turkey, where about one-fifth of the population—some 12 million people—is Kurdish. The Treaty of Sevres (1920) provided for an autonomous Kurdistan but was never implemented. Turkey has long considered Kurds to be merely “Mountain Turks.” A ban on speaking Kurdish in Turkey has been lifted and Kurdish broadcasts there are now legal, but other expressions of Kurdish culture are restricted.
Prospects for Peace
Analysts are divided on how likely a cross-border incursion by the Turks into Iraq is, or whether it would be successful. The Wall Street Journal notes that PKK fighters are “nimble and familiar with the terrain” and stand a chance “of holding off Turkish troops” should they attack. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said a military strike is not imminent; the Turkish parliament has approved military strikes into Iraq anytime during the next year. Others say the PKK has shifted tactics yet again, and is ready to return to the bargaining table. “In the last few years the PKK has begun to change its conduct and it now may be ready for a peaceful approach within Turkey,” Falah Mustafa Bakir, head of the Kurdistan Regional Government’s foreign relations department, tells CFR.org. “Our understanding is that the PKK may be prepared to join the political process in Turkey, and it is left to the Turkish government to seize this opportunity for a potential political solution to this problem.”
Either way, some observers blame the United States for emboldening the separatists.
However in no circumstance should we stand idly by while a Turkish invasion takes place or we will have precipitated the actions of hyenas lopping off by availability, and opportunity, what can be had.
We would take such an action by Iran as CASUS BELLI, and it will remove Turkey from consideration by many as ANY KIND OF ALLY. I wouldn't be shocked if suddenly we find several Turkish infantry divisions at Kirkuk atop both the oil fields and the Turkish minority which they will say needs protection.
Turkish invasion should face the armed opposition of american forces. CERTAINLY of american air. If an invasion is imminent we can easily signal this to Turkey by beginning evacuation of Incirlik.
Things will be tougher, but not as tough as if our inaction abetted a naked grab of Turkish blood for Iraqi oil.
The Turks should be put on notice. They know approximately where the PKK is.
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Bless you Mehmet K, you are the poorest Turk I have ever come across! It's the first time I see a Turk much concerned about babies!! Forget about the PKK Mr K. Please do this just for one single moment!
Give me a glimpse of hope that the 20m strong Kurdish minority in Turkey --- of whom at least 2m happen to be babies --- would be able to lead s safe, dignified living under the rule of a Kamalist army and a racist Turkish majority! Give me that, and the PKK, whom you hate so much, will disappear the next morning - I solemnly PROMISE you that!
Let's just settle that, right here, right now!
My oh my Mr. K. You have no idea what you doing, have you? You have no issue whatsoever to see a whole nation right in front you -- hands tight, legs tight, Tongue tight -- being suffocated to death and you can live with that and NO problem! People like you Mr.K. can never cease to AMAZE me!
And now, much to the distress of the babies you are pretending to be defending, your propaganda is spreading around the world with a click of a mouse!
But much to your distress Mr K. the EU just annulled the PKK terror ruling, today! Yep, I feel truly sorry for you, because it's not your fault after all, this problem of yours is just a tiny symptom of a Kamalist education! And you have the face to complain about US "democracy"? You really should not have said that Mr K.
The US govt GAVE THE TURKS the position of the PKK bases inside another nation for the Turks to act on. We did this to the detriment of the safety of the american people here at home since a Kurdistan, and ITS actions would be a far more reliable ally than the people of Turkey have been since 2001.
What more would you ask of us, towards a nation, which, had it responded to our request to allow the 4th Division to simply pass through Turkey, and attack from the north, may well have allowed us to PREVENT the casualties we have seen in Iraq?
What the United States government is trying to do?
What is Great Middle East Project?
Have u heard about it?
If you don't, please be aware of the games are being played in Middle East. Dividing countries, killing nations, murdering babies are not the plan of "true democracy". The strongest governments in the world are deceiving their people's and they are making the biggest invasion to the Middle East. War. Terror. War. Terror.
Who is building the terrorism?
Are you sure about your answer?
Think again.
PKK is not a political party. It is one of the worst terrorism organization in the world. European Union countries are feeding them to harm Turkey. United States gave weapons to Kurds in Iraq. Kurds gave those guns to PKK, and PKK is trying to invade to Turkey. PKK killed over 50,000 innocent people in Turkey in the past 28 years. PKK is a baby murderer organization. No doubt, who ever supports PKK, should be accepted as a terrorist.
Think carefully ..on one hand you are saying "I can't think about the word ally' in essence saying you are too cynical. Well considering how america (and everyone else) has treated the kurdish national aspirations, who can blame you? On the other hand look at our relationship with Israel, which began with both a recognition and an ARMS EMBARGO which lasted almost 20 years.
Don't be so fast to think of this as 'passing'. Look, Truman, when he recognized Israel, had a close friend from WW1 with whom he was in business until they went bankrupt, who happened to be jewish. That friend got Ben Gurion and Weitzman in to see Truman at the penultimate moment while George Marshall, General of the Armies in WW2 and then Secrtary of State (and author of the Marshall Plan) was threatening to resign if we recognized Israel.
And yet now ..... only Britain has a stronger mutual relationship. Is that passing enough for you? Alliances are based on shared values and shared experiences. NOT A PIECE OF PAPER. Right now we serve each others needs. Right now we need each other. Right now we see the Kurds as a democratic force and one which recognizes we are not the ass holes much of world thinks we are. If that all goes past the tipping point to the trail of alliance in the YEARS AHEAD, with bases, etc. GOOD.
Forget the Iranians countenancing a Kurdistan any more than the Turks, and for the same reasons.
Look at what I am saying. If the Kurds are ready to be the new 'jews' (which you can bet is how the salafi freaks and Khomeinist morons will portray it...cat's paw of the Zionist controlled USA, eh?, and how a LOT of muslims will fall pray to seeing it) then there is something to discuss. We have flown protection over northern Iraq since when ..1991? That's not nothing either.
But remember, I represent only small slice of America. Most of this place just wants OUT (we REMAIN at heart an isolationist nation, stuck with worldwide business interests), and frankly would rather have the 20 minute solution, than go on and on in this way.
No Deal!
It's only in the passing that the US is (or will be) prepared to commit to an independent Kurdish entity! And that's not a good foundation for friendship!
"The US troops will leave soon, but we will stay", the Turks, Iranians and Arabs warn!!! The post "20-50 year range" Kurds will have to deal with them.
- For starters: An outcome that is purely or by and large the byproduct of a US Administration change should be rejected outrightly by the Kurds, instead they should insist on keeping the status quo!
- The US troops need to build a rescue boat in order to get out of IRQ ASAP, the boat this time happened to be called Kurdistan (well, a small one will do for now)! No good deal either, It's precisely this (such Kurdistan) that the Kurds should reject, by all means: And Stick to federalism!
For now, the Iraqi Kurds are much better off than the US troops in Baghdad. AND It's under that umbrella where they need to seek shelter.
- The Kurds should only break away when the time is right. When they deserve it, at least in the eyes of the world, and with the consent of at least one of the regional Influences: Arabs or Iranians (knowing that Turks are out of the question).
What you are drawing here is simply going to cost the Kurds a lot.
The Middle East is growing apart with the rest of the world. And such a "Kurdistan" is not the means to bridge that gap.
- Alliance is all too fine but when it's based on solid foundations. I Stand by You, and You stand by me. Just for the record: The next 20-50 year world is going to shape the basic groundwork for the next millennium!! Will the humble Kurds have a role to play?
- A loose, weak and small Kurdistan is only going to make a good meal for the wolves. INSTEAD, you need to start building not only a boat for your Iraq soldiers, but invest in a nuc-strong (*) country that you can count on, someone strategic and versatile that can talk Arabic with the Arabs, Turksih with the Turks and Farsi with the Iranians!!
A Kurdistan for right reasons - so to speak.
Well I have been personally calling for a Kurdistan in N Iraq since here .
Now as for the political vs military ..well you can be like Bismarck and say war is a continuation of politics by other means, or you can see it like Victor Davis Hanson - that politics is determined by the result ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Since I am American ... politics is a very gray mess where principle always yields over time and tide to what is practical, and may save no lives in the end anyway (that's for another day).
If you read some the posts I made on this subject SINCE this one, in fact I have also called for the USA to simply BEGIN evac of Incirlik. But this is a bigger deal that Kurdistan. The reason for that is Putin. We are headed for very different times I am afraid. Russia is now awash in oil and gas cash, and selling little toys like SU-30's, Kilos, Amur, and Sovremenenny's very very fast. (Let alone the non working Pantsyr's and Tor's).
Never the less, what would Turkey do if we left? Befriend the Russians? I doubt it. Go all the way Islamic? MAYBE. And there is the danger, for no matter what the Russians do, even if they, as I have posited, decided 1 or 2 nukes going off in the USA or Israel would not mean the end of the world, they are deterrable, and the Islamist freaks running around with ginstus are not. And it is the ascendancy of that kind of Islam (whether or not it IS Islam is not for me to say, and it beside the point) which remains the question of our time, and may give the Kurds the moment for independence.
Now as for Kurdistan and the word ally...you don't have to allied to us, only to the idea of Jefferson. Of course, this is the very height of neo-conservatism, and it it this which Bush has proven he is not in the last year. He is not conservative, neo conservative or fiscal conservative OR competent. He is neither fish nor fowl. So I wouldn't look for any dependable help there since a division of Iraq would be painted by Bush opposition as evidence he is a dope who doesn't have the back ground to get involved.
Ironically a Clinton admin, with a Biden Sec State, looking to get the men out of Iraq might be the wedge needed for a Kuridstan to be born, but for the most cynical of reasons, and reasons which can be betrayed as well.
After all, unmentioned here are the Chaldean Christians and their purported treatment in N Iraq, eh? Can you spell Pat Robertson and James Dobson?
Never the less, on balance I still have to say that the american PEOPLE are better served today and for the foreseeable future by a democratic Kurdistan in (at least) northern Iraq, protected a la Japan / Korea by some massive out of the way american bases. That would give us exactly TWO dependable nations which are not enemies (in the 20-50 year range) in the ME. One jewish, and one muslim, and after all, what could be more american? Are the Kurds prepared to be the pariahs portrayed a the stooges of an imperialist, kufr, decadent, polytheist, bunch of fornicating, drinking playthings of the zionists?
And by the way ....
Why is Mein Kampf a bestseller in Turkey?
By Associated Press March 19, 2005
In Turkish bookshops, there's one best seller that some book shops are hesitant to put on the shelves next to the rest.
New paperback versions of Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" have suddenly become top sellers in Turkey, raising questions about whether the sales reflect growing anti-Semitism and anti-American sentiment in this Muslim country, or if it's just curiosity and a cheap read.
oooopsi....
Anti-Bush Song Clip Explodes In Popularity In Turkey
As tensions grow between Turkey and the U.S., anti-Americanism in Turkey also reaches new heights. An anti-Bush song clip recorded last year by the popular Turkish singer Baris Akarsu, is now so much in demand that Turkish TV channels are broadcasting it multiple times every day.
Other anti-American video clips for the same song are breaking viewing records in youtube and other internet sites.
Following are the lyrics of the song by Baris Akarsu, who died last summer in a traffic accident:
“He knows everything… His silence is sinister
“You build… He comes and destroys
“Waits for the last moment… Pours his hatred
“His heart is a dark swamp… He swallows your tomorrows
“You can’t see him… You can’t hear him
“But he is always there
“On the hill, there's a White House
“In it, a clown king
“His job is bad news
“Whose turn will it be?
“He is an artist... That paints bloody pictures
“In his exhibition, is human graveyard
“What he sells is darkness... framed
“His God is money… To which he is a slave
“His words are poison… Don’t listen to him
“His loyal lackeys…. Kiss his skirt
“He manufactures fear… Hides it under decorations
“He buys and sells... Swallows
“On the hill, a White House
“In it, a clown king
“His job is bad news
“Whose turn will it be?
“He is an artist... That paints bloody pictures
“In his exhibition, is human graveyard
“What he sells is darkness... framed"
Source: Milliyet, Turkey, October 26, 2007
epaminondas, right:
Some of your conclusions are definitely sane, but some of the analysis are of a military rather than of a political man!!
The Kurds were ordered out of Kirkuk in 2003, as Turkish intelligence agents were accompanying US troops to inspect the city. Turkey's troops were also amassed on the border at the time, so not much bluffing was involved at the time. The threat was real and is real today too. You are drawing too many hypotheses that are quite black and white. When Turkey invades and when it does not! When the two troops clash, alliance breaks, Kurdistan takes shape and Turkey will have to hit its head against the wall. These ideas are all too elusive.
There are hundreds of other shades between black and white, and Turkey is clever enough to avoid extremes. Though I don't mean the word clever literally here.
Turkey is trying all it can to upset the loose Kurdish-US ties. HOW??? By bringing a "terrorist" group into the equation. A group that's branded terrorist by the US, but not by the Iraqi Kurds (and Barzani just enacuated it: "If Turkey offers peaceful solutions to the PPK and the PKK rejects that, then we will label it as terrorist; but not for now".
As in chess, many times you have no option but rely on the opponent’s mistakes, and rejoice when they fall for the snare!
Now Turkey is making everyone believe that it does not give a damn about the US and it has no regard for international policies or UN conventions!! But, But BUT: Erdogan goes to the UK, and almost half the cabinet was out of the country on that day! WHY? Well, you know. And Erdogan is scheduled to meet Bush soon, too. Then you have it. Turkey has built an empire, is not going to ruin it in a month time, not over PKK, and most certainly not over Barzani.
However, the big catch is when the opponent does not fall for it this time round, so all you have to do is wait longer, may be a bit longer, someone is bound to jump the gun, and that's all what's there to it. Israel-Palestine conflict has been there for 60 years now, and is likely to go on FOREVER. The Kurds have been deceived many times, and are likely to be FOREVER.
So, the stakes for the Iraqi Kurds are quite high to simply go and slaughter all PKK guerrillas, with whom they can, otherwise, join forces the day the US turns its back on them, again.
Now, for heavens' sake, don't mention the world allies to me , it just give me the creep - if you don’t have the decency to so easily let go of your long-standing ally, how can I, whom you have betrayed so many times, TRUST you.
Reagan once said that the Kurds were like “matches” that the US could ignite whenever it needed.
The Iraqi Kurds are playing it by the book so far, and the turn of events has so far been on their side – BY DEFAULT and not courtesy of the USA. You've got to acknowledge this first, before going luring the Kurds with the dream of a de facto state.
Conclusion:
Give the Kurds ONE sign that your alliance with Turkey is definitely of interest to you – by leaving Incirlik NOW! And moving to Irbil!!!!!!!!! Would the US have the courage to mess up with Turkey? No! … I even wonder sometimes who runs business here!
epaminondas, right:
Some of your conclusions are definitely sane, but some of the analysis are of a military rather than of a political man!!
The Kurds were ordered out of Kirkuk in 2003, as Turkish intelligence agents were accompanying US troops to inspect the city. Turkey's troops were also amassed on the border at the time, so not much bluffing was involved at the time. The threat was real and is real today too. You are drawing too many hypotheses that are quite black and white. When Turkey invades and when it does not! When the two troops clash, alliance breaks, Kurdistan takes shape and Turkey will have to hit its head against the wall. These ideas are all too elusive.
There are hundreds of other shades between black and white, and Turkey is clever enough to avoid extremes. Though I don't mean the word clever literary here.
Turkey is trying all it can to upset the loose Kurdish-US ties. HOW??? By bringing a "terrorist" group into the equation. A group that's branded terrorist by the US, but not by the Iraqi Kurds (and Barzani just enacuated it: "If Turkey offers peaceful solutions to the PPK and the PKK rejects that, then we will label it as terrorist; but not for now".
As in chess, many times you have no option but rely on the opponent’s mistakes, and rejoice when they fall for the snare!
Now Turkey is making everyone believe that it does not give a damn about the US and it has no regard for international policies or UN conventions!! But, But BUT: Erdogan goes to the UK, and almost half the cabinet was out of the country on that day! WHY? Well, you know. And Erdogan is scheduled to meet Bush soon, too. Then you have it. Turkey has built an empire, is not going to ruin it in a month time, not over PKK, and most certainly not over Barzani.
However, the big catch is when the opponent does not fall for it this time round, so all you have to do is wait longer, may be a bit longer, someone is bound to jump the gun, and that's all what's there to it. Israel-Palestine conflict has been there for 60 years now, and is likely to go on FOREVER. The Kurds have been deceived many times, and are likely to be FOREVER.
So, the stakes for the Iraqi Kurds are quite high to simply go and slaughter all PKK guerrillas, with whom they can, otherwise, join forces the day the US turns its back on them, again.
Now, for heavens' sake, don't mention the world allies to me , it just give me the creep - if you don’t have the decency to so easily let go of your long-standing ally, how can I, whom you have betrayed so many times, TRUST you.
Reagan once said that the Kurds were like “matches” that the US could ignite whenever it needed.
The Iraqi Kurds are playing it by the book so far, and the turn of events has so far been on their side – BY DEFAULT and not courtesy of the USA. You've got to acknowledge this first, before going luring the Kurds with the dream of a de facto state.
Conclusion:
Give the Kurds ONE sign that your alliance with Turkey is definitely of interest to you – by leaving Incirlik NOW! And moving to Irbil!!!!!!!!! Would the US have the courage to mess up with Turkey? No! … I even wonder sometimes who runs business here!
Well, earthism, you are an interesting commenter, if for no other reason than your wry attitude.
Now, please don't take offense,, but I really don't give a damn about pleasing anyone. I do NOT wish to see Turkey damaged unless they invade Iraq in order to stop the PKK. Of course if they do that, they will by their actions have demonstrated they are not allies since the result would be our troops firing at each other. IN that case as I have written, they will have rolled the dice on the creation of a full Kurdistan out of that chaos. If the Kurds in Northern Iraq are so wedded to the PKK, and Turkey does not invade - then either one of two things will happen..either they will eventually accept what is possible (which still may be a stable Iraq with kurdish autonomy) and put aside what is not for the while, or they will overstep, and the USA will have to do something. As we did in the 70's, only our hands would be dirtier. That would serve NO ONE. As it is I represent a very small minority who think the existence of Kurdistan in Northern Iraq would be good for the security of the American people (and the fact that this might be 'just' is a corollary, but good for all). Most americans feel the pull of what we really are...ISOLATIONISTS.
The Turks however, would do well to consider the arabs of 1936 who refused to allow an Israel which would have been 1/3 the size of what it was in 1947. And then refused again to recognize what IS, driving all to 1967, and an even larger Israel. Until what was a bunch of tiny collective farms is now a garrison state and military giant with 200-600 nuclear weapons.
What you must realize is that the neocons (actually those who in the 60's would have been considered 'liberal', and idealists ..spreading Jefferson, and abhoring the south American 'anti communist' dictators) are thought to be as discredited as global warming is accepted. This is my observation. So appealing to what is 'right' may not be a winning play.
Of course if those Iranians who happen to be Kurdish fire off a revolution......or even tie down the Basij and Pasdaran, while we attend to business....
TO MISS DURAL (as promised) Keep your temper in check. Let's talk Turkey.
Your IDEAS my darling DO NOT BELONG TO THIS CENTURY either, so don't take umbrage to see a map "from 1174". Having said that, I cannot but have utter sympathy for you and other Turks who are victims of the Ataturk education, driven by an insatiable interest in the self and the self-alone. Such climate is not conducive to upholding democratic (and often humane values) - I agree. I suppose people like you don't acknowledge the Armenian genocide either!! Again, this is completely not your fault. However, I'm shocked to see only a handful of Turks are able to break these inhuman bars and voice justice. Education in Turkey must be tough! BUT PLEASE B assured that your imaginary goals are only a WILD GOOSE CHASE. Might backfire, but won't serve your purpose. No. Never.
Nobody is trying to deceive you, the map you see is real. In some respect it's true indeed that you have been deceived, but by your own people. And the answer lies in your education. Full stop.
Why the Education-Education-Education recipe, dO you know why a triple? See: First parent education, then school education, and finally: self education. The latter is what the majority of you Turks lack. Instead you get state education. Hence, ignorance.
Dear epaminondas,
It's in view of the comments I read I wrote my previous message, so please do not take offence, but my idea of you has not changed much. WHY??
a)Your conclusion that the PKK should be first kept in check by the Iraqi Kurds cannot be implemented and will remain a theory. The Iraqi Kurds sympathize with the PKK, not for ideological reasons but blood wise, yet are given the cold shoulder for obvious reasons.
b) The fate of the PKK, or any other liberation movement elsewhere in the world shall not be determined here nor anywhere else, but in the place where they belong. YOU HAVE to realize and consider it in your calculations that the PKK is backed by (at least) some 50 per cent of the Kurds in Turkey, and (at least) some 20 per cent of other Kurds (especially in Iran and Syria). The PKK is at the heart of the problem and shall not be served on a golden plate to the Turks to feast on. The majority of Turks are extreme nationalists that do not belong to this century.
JUST READ THIS by US Diplomat Peter Galbraith:
http://www.middleeastwindow.com/node/1252
c) Otherwise, epaminondas, I agree, the situation is too complicated and you want to please all sides, by steering a middle course, yet are wise enough to recognize that the establishment of a Kurdish state in Iraq is only natural. BUT - again - let's face it: It's almost an incontrovertible fact that most of the troubles the Kurds are facing today are due to American promises to them, or the breaking of them in the last century.
Is it time to rectify that? Once you had to please the Turks, today pleasing the Kurds is not only long overdue but is the only way out for the US in the Iraq quagmire. So, you are not even doing them a favour, if I may.
d) My final point (pretty much part of the first): Before asking the Iraqi Kurds to step in and kill their own people (PKK) for the sake of your ally and Kurds’ staunch enemy, the USA should secure some rights for the Kurds, let the promised independent Kurdish entity be established first in northern Iraq – with Kirkuk as its capital – then you might be able to try your luck. Else, the PKK might come quite handy to the Iraqi Kurds when the big boat begins to rock!!
My Next comment is to Miss Duran.
Well earthism, if you read the comments I am being accused of being totally pro kurdish.
In fact if you read what I have said, I believe Iraq does NOT exist except in the minds of Picot and Sykes, and that Kurdistan SHOULD exist in Northern Iraq. I have said this ALL OVER THE BLOG, and repeatedly.
The PKK IS, beyond a shadow of a doubt a bunch of murderers and terrorists who wish to make sure that Kurdistan also includes about 35% of Turkey. The PKK came into existence at a time when the KGB was actively aiding Carlos and other murderers for political causes, and the PKK courted such support and such means for the support of the USSR and as a bunch of communists.
Speaking of the jews, from the time of the inquisition onwards in Spain, it was ILLEGAL to have, use or teach Hebrew among the forced conversion of the Marranos, yet it seems to be fine. Kurdish is spoken in enough places outside of Turkey for the tongue to be just fine.
However, if there WAS a Kurdistan in Iraq, I have a feeling that if what YOU say is correct, there will be a mass exodus. That might turn out to be ideal.
TO: epaminondas, my dear,
I wonder how long did it take you to draft the above report, have you got anything else to say to prove you are a Turkish agent? If you are not, then let me tell you something: The PKK might not be the most sophisticated rebel organization in the world, but my friend: The organization came to existence when the whole Kurdish nation in Turkey (est 20m) where facing assimilation, The language was banned. And full stop.Now imagine for a split second: You can no longer use use your mother tongue. And full stop again....
Does anything else make any sense when you cannot use your mother tongue? Do you think anything matters when you and your nation denied the right to say who you are? All of us cried at some point when the way the Jews where treated in Polnski's "The Pianist". All of are crying for the genocide that took place against he Armenians, it will probably take us another 80 years to look back on 2007, and say: God dammit what an abuse!! In today's world we are led by idiots and we are bound to become one.
Let's wait and see the day Turkey comes under international spotlight, then you know who the US is allying with!! Wait and see when we journalists begin to dig in the messy south eastern Turkey. I shall tell a few stories then, and you shall listen.
Answer this: Since when fighting for your basic rights was an act to terror? Fighting so that your children can read poetry in their mother tongue!!!!!
Sumimasen, cock vwee passeevay itchye.
American Indians are free to LEAVE the reservation ANYTIME and using the advantages in place by law here to TRY to rectify what they faced, can participate FULLY in our 'culture' and economy. I know about this because my PARTNER is an Indian, and he is doing better than me ..I am another kind of minority..and I live on a lake ..an american dream.
Those who choose to remain on the reservation have everything<.b> taken care of, but live lives of useless passing of time(his words). There ARE no jobs on the reservation, and I am shocked that the unemployment rate is not 95%.And they are in what WE measure as poverty (Cable TV with HBO, plenty of protein, small plain microwaves, but truly poor resources in school by any objective measure, etc). Poverty in America is not poverty in Lagos, but it is also not fun when everyone OUTSIDE the reservation is buying new cars, and new suits, and new homes, and flying to Hawaii.
Look, people are not dying of thirst in the arizona desert to get in here because as a minority they will face hell. That INCLUDES indians destroyed by the spanish in central and latin america ..and I know about that because of adoption and biological parents.
Actually BTW the Turkish govt spent FAR MORE than any armenian group in the last month or so in WASHINGTON.
Ms Rice is a fool, if you ask me.
And as for you and your boyfriend, no one on this planet is neutral about anything. People only think they are looking thru a personal warped mirror. That is not calling you bad ..that is calling you HUMAN.
Selling arms is a stupid waste of resources as the Israelis who sold technology from their own aircraft which the Chinese customer then built and today announced they are selling to Iran can tell you. But it is an outgrowth of what we are. If you have a solution, I'll fly over there shake your hand and we can get started.
As far as companies like Boeing(?) or United Technologies(?) promoting conflict...to do what, use up product? Seems like a silly waste of time. War needs no extra promotion among humans. Just ask any manufacturer of ammo for the AK-47. He has and needs no marketing department, or advertising. The really big companies advertise the goodness of their business processes to congressmen in DC as a lobby, that is certainly true. But so do cardiac researchers like me. So do insurance companies. So do auto makers, unions,...all of whom are advocating something which in the end may hurt someone.
If there are three humans left alive after the next war..you will immediately have politics. If there are 5 you will have sides and arms. That is what we are. Bismarck's observation about war being the continuation of politics by other means might be backwards where humans are concerned,..politics is the continuation of war by other means. Such is my observation. I don't have to like it, but I observe it to be true.
That said ...I'll probably be one of the people in the new over 50 Peace corps ...
Ulan eşsolusu, bizimkiler o haritayı alıp senin münasip bir yerine soksunlar e mi?...
You agree or not selling arms is the best business in the world legally or illegally... And those compagnies are doing their best to "promote " conflicts everywhere..
I believe also in scientfic researches such as :
*** American Journal of Economics and Sociology, The, Oct, 2001 by Elizabeth Zahrt Geib
NATIVE AMERICANS, or American Indians, suffer some of the highest rates of poverty and unemployment among racial minority groups in the United States, and conditions are even worse on Native American reservations. In 1989, 27.2 percent of Native American families lived below the poverty level while 10 percent of all American families fell into this category (U.S Bureau of the Census 1990a, Table 112). The 1989 Native American family median income was $21,619, only 67 percent of the average family median income for the total U.S. population (ibid). Census Bureau estimates of Native American unemployment rates across selected reservations in 1990 vary from 14 percent to 44 percent (U.S. Bureau of the Census 1990b, Summary Tape File 3c). The Bureau of Indian Affairs reports even higher unemployment rates for these areas, estimating rates as high as 70 percent for some reservations (Stuart 1987). Both series place reservation unemployment rates far above average rates for other races or regions *****
You see i have been in States, i have seen the dark side also, not everything is Casinos and Disneyland
You will allways still unable to respond to biological arms
My ethics are good enough for me i dont have to learn from anybody
And i am glad that i am raised by a Greek Nanny which i loved more than my Mother and she thought me about those principles of ethics side by side by my Professors at Sorbonne and my Priest... Also i am glad that i have an USA raised and lived Cretan Boyfriend who is very intellectual and humanist.. And most important impartial, that what it counts to solve problems..
Dont worry Turkey will be never left alone being so rich in land, minings and food plus their startegic points i can see many many mouths licking their lips...
Armenian so called Genocide ( killings and murders yes and Turkey should admit that, but Genocide no ) i told you i dont care, Ottoman era is finished for me, but i wish the Turkish Lobby in Usa had the same financial power as much as Armenians
And i am sure Ms. Rice will come to Istanbul with very wise and acceptable solutions better than yours ...
I am quitting this forum wishing you all the best...
Considering the cheap smear of the 'contra-crack-CIA to kill Americans who happen to be black' conspiracy you have willingly swallowed, your conflation of wars and facts such as Grenada and Nicaragua, and your lack of ETHIC of not even bothering to try and document another smear that Iraq was a war for oil ... pointing fingers at the USA over native Americans (btw we live near 4 different reservations from different tribes, and in two of them gigantic casinos which the tribe owns are going up ..in one case dead center in the city on eight acres) is a pretty putrid out via deflection.
"And Turkey will do much better if some outsiders will leave them alone and if they will able to cut down that billions of dollars they are spending to buy F16, skorkys etc... I am sure some compagnies can manage without that money"
This is the world ..nobody leaves anyone alone, ever, anywhere.
Think Turkey would want to be unarmed while Iran buys 100 SU-30 from RUssia, and two complete squadrons of J-10's frmo China? (want the links?) It was the USA which held to it's arms embargo against Israel in the middle east while the USSR armed EVERY ARAB STATE during the 50's and early to mid sixties.
So it has ever been, and so it shall ever be as long as humans are present. Not here, and not there.
Our congress 'should' be free to name 1915 a genocide, yet Turkey has spent MILLIONS in advertising and lobbying to attack members freely elected here to change that policy.
Good luck in Turkey. We all need it. Here's hoping our armies don't end up shooting each other after the next PKK provocation, which you can BET YOUR HOUSE they will work for.
I dont know how i can document as a simple person any of you are mentioning when i think that the USA Government still is not able to "document" those bioligical arms in Iraq ????
And continue yr travellings and make stop in Iraq (mostly Northern İraq) to see all the USA origin contractors in many fields specially construction with very prosperous turnovers...
And i believe very much about "charity begins at home" i hope you are showing the same concern you show to the Kurds to the Indian people of USA ( thinking their past on those lands ).. I have been to some "rezervations" and if i was an USA citizen i wont be very proud of that....
And Turkey will do much better if some outsiders will leave them alone and if they will able to cut down that billions of dollars they are spending to buy F16, skorkys etc... I am sure some compagnies can manage without that money ...............
Have good day Sir...nothing more to say from me .....
"And i have many many close American friends fedup by this stupid Iraqi carnage going both for Iraqis and USA soldiers and they agree that the only cause is the oil reseve"
Please document that we are after their oil? Or are you saying you think we wish to ensure that the oil moneys are not used in a salafist, or another khomeinist govt in actions clearly against the american people? That is an entirely different matter and one based in concern, and given the pasdaran, basij and hizballah, a well founded concern about Iran and what happens when oil $ is used against us and our allies...or are you not perhaps acquainted with the FACT that Rafsanjani and other Iranian leaders are under indictment by the govt of Argentina for the Hizballah bombing of the Jewish community ctr in Buenos Aires in 1994 which killed ~100 and injured ~300.
Since 1987 I have traveled about 150,000 actual miles/year outside the USA. Since this was for cardiovascular research, and since research is a luxury for a society, I have not been to all places, but, I have been all over most of asia, all of europe, and the pacific. From 1987-2002 50%+ of my time was spent out of the USA, so I am not inexperienced either.
Ironically YOU are the kind of person who can save the planet from a clash of civilizations, and you will be the first to feel the shariah pressures if any, and I truly hope that can be avoided. BUt it will fall to you to inisist on your human rights. Nothing could be better for this planet than a nation like Turkey showing that the PEOPLE in a muslim majority nation can be sovereign.
As far as my being pro Kurdish, I would say I recognize that this nation among others HAVE conspired since WW2 to prevent their national aspirations, and that despite the HUGE reductions in violence in Iraq in the last 3 months, the nation of Iraq, invented by the brits, is not really 'there', and if the Kurds SHOULD have a nation, it should be in northern Iraq. I do not think carving out hunks of other nations for this is a good idea...BUT..it is a realistic chance that this is exactly what could occur if the turkish army really invades northern Iraq, ESPECIALLY if this results in Turks and Americans firing on each other.
Dear Mr Epaminondas,
I am sorry about Grenada, i will check this too.
I told also before Turkish Government is not perfect, in Bosnia Or Kosovo Turkish Nato officers and soldiers are there but its true that they have been late to act, but as a country we welcomed more Bosnian refugees than any other country...
I am not Muslim, so i dont much about yr ciataions of islamism or arabism lets say.... I am in favor of free speach and freedom of religion for everybody.. As a woman of 38 yrs old i dont feel any kind of oppresion in Turkey,though i am admitting that lately extremist of every facets are growing and i dont like this.. But i still believe that the country will surpass this..
I am not anti-whatever but neither i am pro. I have been through yr other postings and it smells quite pro-Kurdish, both of the flags you used are in favor of Kurdistan as quite a bit of yr writings..
I dont care really,flags etc. etc. its quite emotional but this cannot change realities,Turkey will not leave no piece of land, i still think that Turkey has the same rights as much as UK or Spain in that subject. I have rather a Cartesien mind and i like logic and i am allways trying to be neutral..What runs today our world are the big kartels and companies plus the stock exchange markets..And Turkey's almost 80 millions consumers are a nice number..
I have been a world traveller and after seing places such as Mauritania or Bangladesh, i am grateful to the Lord for the bed i am able to lie and for every glass of water and every plate of hot food on my table..
I still back the idea that the whole world should cut down in arms business and unfortunately on that field the selling Oscar goes to....
And i have many many close American friends fedup by this stupid Iraqi carnage going both for Iraqis and USA soldiers and they agree that the only cause is the oil reseve ....
Good night from Istanbul
By Ismail Salami, Press TV, Tehran ....
TEHERAN????
END OF STORY.
PRESS TV is an English language international television news channel which is funded by the Iranian government, based in Tehran and broadcasts in English on a round-the-clock schedule. - WIKI
Anyone who gives the mantle of truth to a bunch of genocidal racists who have trouble making up their mind if they'd rather kill me or Israel has a lot to learn.
A google of Salami yields that he is Iranian, and HE doesn't source his claims whih are about a private american company (Blackwater) NOT THE US. So that is probably a smear as well.
IN short you have accepted rumour without the slightest effort to see if it is true because THAT IS WHAT YOU WISH TO BELIEVE
I can write a story just like that with a kernel of reality and claim Turks were using the PKK as a pretext to steal Iraq Oil fomr kurds gassed by Saddam, and every armenian in america would sound just like you looking thru a mirror
Rather pathetic.
Seda Kansu..I hate to tell you this, but Nicaragua and Grenada are 2 separate nations, and have NO MORE to do with each other than do Greece and Morocco. If any other nation is connected to Nicaragua by virtue of contras it's Iran.
Panama was invaded because the moron running the joint was an irredeemable drug pusher(who actually is just about to be released from an american jail for breaking OUR laws), but even that is irrelevant to my point..WHAT DID WE LEAVE BEHIND? Better? You better believe it
I'm sorry that american (not western ..we dragged EVERYONE else along) timing disappoints you, but what did Turkey do? We acted. We are ready to more in Darfur, but Bush will only act in one more place without the UN, if that (Iran). So sorry, but we acted in the Balkans with the least amount of self interest possible, and every critical opinion here of that move was based on the idea of precisely that. Think Dayton would ever have happened without us? Sorry we disappoint in timing .. and THAT IS anti american prejudice. Of course if we acted BEFORE the slaughter began it would have looked a lot like Iraq wouldn't it. Just think about that. If Churchill had been successful in alerting a ready england to take out Germany when it would have cost almost nothing after the Rhineland in 1936, it's Churchill who would have looked like the warmonger now. And there wouldn't be the slightest bit of evidence to say otherwise.
I would LOVE to bring Jefferson to KSA. But you tell me ... do you think the believers in takfir, Tamiyya and Ibn Wahab are ready to grant the vote, and political office to 'their' women? Do you think given what Bin Baz preached, and their muftis still do this is possible in any way? I'd rather INVENT our way out of fossil fuels and tell the Al Saud to SUCK EGGS. They are not our allies. They are not our friends. They are not even neutral, except for wanting to preserve their fortune derived from the family gas station. But don't mistake that for a prayer of such religious freedom that someone could abandon Islam to ANYTHING else, and find protection for this under the law, and therefore protection from salafi freaks by the state. That would be democracy as WE know it here. My friends in the gulf have been quite clear that our kind of democracy is totally incompatible with their Islam.
You need better sources ....the Contra Crack thing is crazier that the 9/11 'truthers' stuff. Just because it made print or on line doesn't mean squat anymore. It's a baloney story for the conspiracy evil greedy capitalist Chomskyite morons. John Kerry, I am sad to report to you (and I am a registered democrat), is lost. The cocaine conspiracy was touted by Maxine Waters, and there's a reason she is now regarded as whacked out. Kerry's collapse into such ideas is clear proof not of any credibility, but of his ego, and his desperation.
I'm 57 and I have worked in civil rights in the south in the 60's, organized anti Vietnam protests, and was a real live hippie. But all this today should not be mistaken in any way shape or form for anything like that.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail.aspx?id=26974§ionid=3510303
I am sorry but i certainly not agree :
All those stated (including wars ) were not only carried by USA army but also with Allied or NATO forces.And it was mostly wars, Iraq is an invasion which all the main reasons has been turned to be false starting by those bilogical arms, never found...
And believe me nothing is done without any interest,you mention for exemple Panama :
*** Under the Torrijos-Carter Treaties, the United States returned all canal-related lands to Panama on 31 December 1999, but reserves the right to military intervention in the interest of its national security ***
or even worst is the Nicaraguan ( Granada ) affair :
*** After the U.S. Congress prohibited federal funding of the Contras in 1983, the Reagan administration continued to back the Contras by covertly selling arms to Iran and channeling the proceeds to the Contras (The Iran-Contra Affair). When this scheme was revealed, Reagan admitted that he knew about the Iranian "arms for hostages" dealings but professed ignorance about the proceeds funding the Contras; for this, National Security Council aide Lt. Col. Oliver North took much of the blame. Senator John Kerry's 1988 U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations report on Contra-drug links concluded that "senior U.S. policy makers were not immune to the idea that drug money was a perfect solution to the Contras' funding problems." According to the National Security Archive, Oliver North had been in contact with Manuel Noriega, a Panamanian general and the de facto military dictator of Panama from 1983[ to 1989 when was overthrown and captured by a U.S. invading force. He was taken to the United States, tried for drug trafficking, and imprisoned in 1992.
The Reagan administration's support for the Contras continued to stir controversy well into the 1990s. In August 1996, San Jose Mercury News reporter Gary Webb published a series titled Dark Alliance, linking the origins of crack cocaine in California to the contras. Freedom of Information Act inquiries by the National Security Archive and other investigators unearthed a number of documents showing that White House officials, including Oliver North, knew about and supported using money raised via drug trafficking to fund the contras. Sen. John Kerry's report in 1988 led to the same conclusions.***
And please just dont mention Bosnia or Kosovo,after years of bloodshet and mass murders the western world decided to move there..It was such a hypocrisy
And everbody knows that future will belong to the powers which will control universal energy sources starting with oil and water..
Why USA is not trying to bring democracy to a country called Saudi Arabia,(close ally you will say ) yes they are wealthy but wealth doesnt mean allways freedom of expression....
I am not anti-American,i think USA has great qualities, and i am not against any country or citizen or religion and i do dislike endlessly racism... But i do object to all governments including mine when they do injustice and act only for pure materialism trying to make only one sided big commercial profits and presenting this in other names such as democracy or humanatarian causes ...
I am sorry again , i am not buying this...
Seda KANSU...
"I wont discuss the USA- Iraq policy because the reasons of establishing democracy than seems to be limited only to “oil rich” or “whatever rich ” countrys of the world."
What absolutely ANTI-AMERICAN PREJUDICE !
Japan 1945 - no resources
Germany 1945 no resources
Korea 1951 No resources
Granada 198X No resources
Panama 1988+ NO RESOURCES
Bosnia 1992-3 THRU TODAY NO RESOURCES
KOSOVO 1997 THRU TODAY NO RESOURCES
In each case the USA went out of its way to leave behind or drastically improve the system there to a democratic system which guarantees individual human rights.
In terms of Turkish democracy, by my stds you are doing fine. It's a continuum to be sure, and the rise of desire for Sharia will, IMHO destroy everything if not checked (either the people are sovereign or they are not), but so far, Turkey has come a very very long way from 1900, and a sinking caliphate.
Having exactely 4 different bloods in my system and all three religions in my family and speaking 5 different languages including Greek, yes i consider my self as a human of the world and i am proud of it.…
I wont discuss the USA- Iraq policy because the reasons of establishing democracy than seems to be limited only to “oil rich” or “whatever rich ” countrys of the world. Algeria for exemple or Darfour it seems that everything is pretty much OK on those lands…..( no oil, no precious mineral or mining etc…)
I do agree that every government should do best for his country and citizens but within ethic codes !!!!
I am sure the third reich government had very very strong reasons according to them when they did the so called annexions and all the other atrocities not so long ago…
And i do not agree that any piece of land should be separated from Turkey or any other country to establish new ethnic places… Your very loyal partenaire the UK is showing a good and strong exemple with Ireland despite blodshets and political discussions. Spain and Eta is another exemple in this issue..
I will not say that Turkey’s democracy is on the level and standards it should be, but it came a long way and it will reach its goals within time. I am in favor for a federal state system in Turkey, but i am completely against about giving a handfull of soil to anybody because there is no end to it ( pls remember when Texas claimed independency and Mexico was just waiting behind the door )
And if the Turkish government will be able to cut down billions and billions of dollars in buying arms specially from USA, investing that Money more in education health and jobs in the east of the country, ethnics problems and all other economic problems has more chance to be solved.
Ms Dural you are making claims and assertion without event the ATTEMPT at proof. And frankly, childishly walking off if I don't do as you demand.
"USA first denied they helped pkk but Turkey proved it by showing pkk missiles they seized ( all made in USA) and finally they HAD TO accept they helped pkk!"
LINK PLEASE ! Otherwise this is simply a smear. Educate me.
"USA is taking REVENGE about our decision on deployment of American soldiers in Iraq" That is a very foolish idea. Much easier would be to simply stop bothering our other allies to admit you to the EU. THAT would hurt permanently. Yet we STILL aggressively push for Turkey to be an EU member, when it's opposed by every other major NATO ally. Why?
Ironically you have moved towards proving what I fear is true...this dispute IS between the American PEOPLE and the Turkish PEOPLE and we haven't even mentioned 1915.
Seda Kansu, thank you for your thoughts..as another commenter has done, please allow me to separate my opinions from my observation. Just because I observe the historical fact of where Kurds have lived does not mean there should be a Kurdistan. Whether or not there IS one is far more dependent on things your nation does or does not do.
I OBSERVE that Kurds have been oppressed and repressed for centuries in other people's nations. I OBSERVE that the USA has been complicit in the 1970's along with Iran and Turkey in doing this as well. I OBSERVE that Turkey is NOT the NATO ally today it has been in the past, and that the reason is the rise of islamist sentiment OR as another commenter points out nationalism, but either way the Turkish people have separated themselves from what is important to the American people. Therefore we are rethinking what is best for us.
You are quite correct in pointing out that many ethnicities CAN AND DO live in 'other' nations. Sometimes that works out and sometimes not. If they do so happily over centuries then fine, but as we see in Russia and the 'stans (conquered from 1600-1900) even with all that Stalin did, those nationalities could not be avoided when they wanted independence. As we see in the land from the Italian border to the Turkish border, it hasn't worked AT ALL.
I don't claim to know what is "right". I only claim to try and know what is best for the USA. I am not a citizen of the world, I am an american. I leave it to you to propose what is best for Turkey.
But you must realize this.
No one can doubt that if there had not been a mass murder in NY and Washington in 2001, we would not be in Iraq today. Iraq is JUST ONE CAMPAIGN in America's effort to make it's PEOPLE safer by TRYING to create democracies (I'll leave whether that's' a good idea, or possible for another time). Turkey refused to allow HALF our men to simply cross their land while a NATO ally in that effort to make the American people safer. That is how it is viewed here. This was undoubtedly the wish of the VAST majority of Turks, and as a fellow democracy we must respect that. However, if the existence of a Kurdistan, EVEN IF IT OCCUPIES NOTHING MORE THAN NORTHERN IRAQ, is something which, in the end will be good for the safety of the American people (and fulfill the aspirations of at least hundreds and hundreds of years for the Kurds ..think Halabja) , then YOU must respect that as well, if we support such an idea. Whether or not that includes IN THE END land in Turkey, Iran and Syria as well is NOT up to us as much as you.
Dear Mr . Epaminondas
Starting from yr point of view : ethnic kurds have lived for LONGER THAN THE OTTOMANS HAVE BEEN IN TURKEY...
well, than today USA map should be urgently redesigned showing all the areas where the all the red Indians have lived, isn'it, they been the first and omnipotent land owners before sadly reaching almost an extinction ... Some people still discuss the ethnicity of Alexandre the Great as a Greek or Macedonian, and its impossible to convince none of them...On this days maps showing all the north of Greece as Macedonian origin also started to pop up .....
Nurturing ethnicity problems specially in the Middle East is a primary tool for selling arms... Its long subject but its true..
Turkey today is a nation and land envied by many... We are a young nation with a growing economy going on a very rich land towards maybe a far but certain and prosperous future. While building this future we will have many many obstacles and many many outsiders wanting to stop that. I dont live in the era of the Ottomans, its a past history for me. But today's Turkish republic celebrating its 84th anniversary its the only reality.The ethnic problems we are going through now are custom made but not for long, nor the islamist fear they are trying to spread... Its a great land, great country and certainly great people, and what counts its the future, history its history..
Have a good day
Mr. epominandas,
1) According to EU, NATO and even USA pkk is a terrorist organisation!
2) Turkey's map is not like the above map, there's no Kurdistan in our soil and never will be!
3) USA first denied they helped pkk but Turkey proved it by showing pkk missiles they seized ( all made in USA) and finally they HAD TO accept they helped pkk! USA is taking REVENGE about our decision on deployment of American soldiers in Iraq. But Turkey is not USA's puppet.
Despite of these 3 FACTS you haven't removed above false map!I protest this again. Your blog is unobjective, double-standart, you see the whole matter from a narrow perspective with the eyes of one side only. Since you haven't removed the above map, I don't need to make comments again. It's useless...
müjde dural
Ankara Türkiye
Thanks Dr. Yetik
Well you are certainly right about that discussion of Islam taking more space than comments can provide here (though if conducted rationally can be most stimulating).
For me prior to its 2003 decision NOT to allow the 4th infantry division to transit the country, Turkey was simply a western(ized?) NATO ally, not getting a fair shake from the EU. Since that decision my attention has been turned more that way, but my knowledge of the specifics of an active democracy such as Turkey's - inner politics must be limited. It's barely possible to keep track of the daily flopping around of our 14-16 hopefuls here.
Unfortunately there are many cases of specific anti Americanism in the world (another item way too large for comments). It is my opinion, that when they are boiled down they are in fact NOT about this or that administration, but about what America and American essentially are, and that taken in aggregate, MOST UNFORTUNATELY reduce to Huntington.
No doubt this is colored by my nearly daily conversational experience with Gulf Arabs for the last 6+ years.
I want to go out of my to tell you I appreciate your differentiation of what your opinion is from what your observation is.
Hello again. I am Turkish and muslim. Discussion of islam
would really take more than comments that can be written here, so
I will not touch that :)
However, I am not blind to not see that the anti-American and anti-western movement is based largely on religion (although still religion is only a means to bring people together, and not the basic problem) in the world.
So, yes, of course the basic problem(s) scattered around the Jews and Israel leading to anti-western and anti-American feeling worldwide is mostly islamic on the surface.
My point was merely on the specific example of Turkey, and the
feelings of Turkish people last several years. The anti-American feellings specific to Turkey stem from nationalist feelings,
not religious feelings, unlike the some other parts of islamic world (which you point out rightfully).
I am not stating this opinion neither as a positive or negative. It is just an observation (of course based on my experience) that the anti-american and anti-western feelings in Turkey are mostly nationalist, and not religious.
Thanks for the nice discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply Dr. Yetik.
While I respect what you are saying about the real politics of Turkey, given what the leaders and people of Turkey have said about americans, jews (and jewish americans) in 'that movie' I cannot help but think that the racist canards, and anti American prejudice exhibited blatantly match exactly what the salafi freaks (and khomeinist freaks) ignorantly say about the west, america and jews, and manage to match this with the words of a book they insist is the perfect, revealed and immutable words of God, and that if you disagree, it's TAKFIR for you if a muslim, and smiting if you are an infidel. I mean - american jewish doctors stealing 'arab' organs for rich jews elsewhere ? Are we kidding? Yet it was snapped up as fast as Dan Rather's report on Bush's National Guard service - people wanted to believe what is untrue.
I hope you are right. However, the times we live in suggest otherwise.
Political disagreements are one thing. Religion is a whole other ball game, and as we see with HAMAS, makes a political dispute permanently insoluble.
not at all..
you say the map shows dispersion of Kurds but what about the name KURDISTAN? In Turkey's borders there's NOT any another separate country. Also, many Kurdish citizens migrated to the big cities so we have a homogen structure of people. American citizens want what is good for American people and as Turkish citizens we want what is good for Turkey and Turkish and Kurdish people. Since we always regarded Kurds as our brothers not an ethnic group or enemy, Turkish people married Kurdish, Kurdish people married Turkish..we lived in peace till imperialist powers agitated some kurdish people... If they let us alone there'll be no problem for Turkish and Kurdish.
Finally I ask you to remove the above deceiving Kurdistan map again. It's wrong and non-ethical
"Why did you shoot us from our back."
We have done nothing to 'you'. I am an American.
If a Kurdistan does come into existence the proximate reason WILL BE a Turkish invasion which resulted in an anarchy so profound that such a thing becomes possible.
As I note in another post, that is precisely WHY the PKK is killing Turkish soldiers right now.
Iraq is calming down. If this continues and Iraq can maintain itself .. everyone wins EXCEPT those people who want, and will do anything to bring about the existence of a Kurdistan even if it means destabilizing the entire area to get it.
Ms Dural, I apologize for mis-gendering you.
The map is in fact a current map of the dispersion of Kurds TODAY.
I mention Salah Ul Din strictly to show how long the Kurds have lived there, something which can NOT be said for a single american indian tribe, both because they were nomadic (in the majority) and also (for many) because they lived by conquering each other continuously. This is true geographically of tribes from the Abenaqui (Maine) to the Nez Perce (Oregon).
Those statements are all facts.
Now we depart from the facts and venture into the realm of what is best for the American people, and THAT is what forms the heart of this dispute.
I do not claim to be 'right'.
I do not claim to do, or want what is best for Turkey, in the minds of the Turkish people.
I want to dispassionately MEET if it is possible in some area of agreement if for no other reason than to show those who live in democracies will reject the other paths, bearing in mind what is best for the American people's day to day security (I will leave it to you and others to make the case for the Turks), and the historical facts of a very difficult area of the planet, and a very difficult time for Americans and Muslim majority nations
All the people from different Nations has been lived since centuries in Anatolia.. They has been sad, happy,poor and happy with us.. Our Country has establihed in 1923 after a big War..They all were with us.. We were and are all together..
What did we do to you ?? We keep you like ourselves.. We give home near our homes, we have eaten together.. Why did you shoot us from our back.. What is the problem ?
But if you want to take a piece of our Land.. Sorry My Friend.. This is an TREASON..
So many people has did it to us in history.. And history has chastened they..
But now.. History will only watch ..
We will write it with the Blood Of MEHMETCIK..
"SEHITLER OLMEZ.. VATAN BOLUNMEZZ.."
PKK is a terrorist organisation according to NATO as well.
It's not an ethical behaviour deceiving your readers by a map from the years 1174. I ask you...
Who is Salah al din? A Kurdish leader reigned between 1174 and 1193 . So the above map's dated form 12th.century! We are in 2007 not in 1174. How can you deceive your readers as if the above map belongs today ?..
If say -Cherokee tribe want to found a separate, independent country in today's New York on the grounds that they lived there years years ago, will your president and your people accept this?
Remove this ridiculous map dated from 1174. Because you're giving a false impression to the readers. You don't have such a right.
mr.epaminondas,
I've just seen your comment,thanks. I'm preparing my answer meanwhile you can see the map of USA before United States of America.I hope you understand what I mean we're in 2007 not in the years before Ottoman Empire . (By the way Miss Dural not Mr.)
http://www.nativeamericans.com/AmericanIndianTribeMap.jpg
Recent events do not allow for reasonable reactions by Turkish people to what is being said on the subject matter.
With that in my mind, in my opinion, existence of a Kurdish state insider Iraq (not on Turkish soil, as the historical map suggests) is an option that Turkey should consider in the mid term. If low level changes are taking world somewhere out of our control, we should adopt and benefit instead of opposing and losing.
However, as you point out, PKK is not the means for that since they have been attacking civilians, bombing cities, etc. It is an organization rightfully recognized as a terrorrist organization by EU and USA.
One last note about the Turkish people's feelings about America.
I believe it is a part of the general American antipathy throughout the world.
Second, if you follow Turkish politics, you will see that American antipathy is fed by nationalism, not religion. In fact, the ruling party which is islamic rooted is very severely being critisized by the ever increasing nationalist movement for being pro American.
The question that being pro American is good or bad for Turkey being aside, the anti American (and western) movement is fed by nationalism (not religion) against the efforts of the islamic rooted goverment.
I. Samil Yetik, PhD
Chicago, Il
Thank you for your comments, Mr Dural.
The Kurdish people have been held in someone else's nation from before the time of the Kurd Salah-ul Din, is this not correct? That map is a generally accepted one of where the ethnic kurds have lived for LONGER THAN THE OTTOMANS HAVE BEEN IN TURKEY
Three times in the last 50 years the US, Turkey and Iran under the Shah have acted to squelch Kurdish aspiration towards even autonomy, let alone an independence.
As you should be able to tell from my several posts on the subject, the PKK, in my opinion, is a bunch of ex communist, leftist thugs, only lately committed to killing Turkish soldiers instead of civilians, and the USA should not be allied to them (we are not). Nor should they operate with impunity from northern Iraq.
My primary concern though is with the REAL ascendancy of the islamist movement in a nation formerly a real ally, and now, as polls have shown FOR YEARS, NOT a friend to the american people.
I am not worried about people disliking Bush. Sooner or later we have a new president. It is the acceptance by the Turkish peoples, and wild popularity - as the movie Valley of the Wolves - of anti western religious feeling - and it shows what the horrific muslim brotherhood derived freaks have been preaching which has now been deemed factual by the popular leaders of the Turkey.
It is because of this trend (which I do not see as easily reversible) that it is even FEASIBLE for Americans to speak of a Kurdistan, and a COMPLETE one, as a real democratic ally.
The American people were shocked in 2003 when the Turkish Assembly denied the permission for our men to cross to Iraq. When we saw the popularity in Turkey of those who truly mean our way of life ill, here, people began to think and to re-evaluate ..especially after we moved in, in Bosnia and Kosovo without UN vote or sanction to protect Muslims from Christians (really) by direct force of arms.
My point in all this is that no policy of the USA can change the Turkish people's feeling. Nothing we did improved opinions towards us after massive relief efforts (including the anchoring of a complete American FLEET on scene for more than a month to help) in Indonesia (another 'ally') after the horrific tsunamis, and nothing we did in northern pakistan in sending in a WING of helicopters, and medical aid, and medical help -a complete mobile hospital, and shelter for tens of thouands for 6-8 months, after the terrible earthquake there.
The reason none of this helps is that the word of the islamists on the infidels has been accepted. 9:5 , 9:29 and the Hadith of the the Stone and the Tree are what is on the lips and in the hearts of the peoples, I am afraid.
That is what lies between us, and why a Kurdistan may end up being the result of a Turk invasion of norther Iraq. Especially if this ends with Turkish and american soldiers firing on each other.
We are asking the Turkish govt to do EXACTLY what we demanded of Israel in 1991 when Saddam was Scudding the hell out of Israel every day. But even if we are successful the larger issue remains.
Islamist incitement to hate, outright racism and violence has been successful among the muslim peoples.
I also add one important thing:
Remember how Israel reacted for 2 missing Israel soldiers.
Remember why USA in Iraq. (consider where is Iraq and where is USA ! )So how can USA tell Turkey to keep calm!I ask USA what is he doing in Iraq?
Each country has a right of selfdefence what we're doing is selfdefence only.
Noone can separate our country, noone can destroy our national unity. Turkey will never give permission those people who dream to seperate our country. Let they dream dreaming such foolish maps, they cannot see it other than their dreams.
müjde dural
Ankara Türkiye
I protest above map. If you don't know the real map of Turkey, click the link below:
http://www.turkla.com/images/map_turkiye.gif
For centuries many traitors wanted to separate our country, many foreigners covet our country's soil. The above map is a dream that they can see in their dreams only.
Not all Kurdish people traitors like pkk.Ermenian terror organisation ASALA support PKK. And pkk killed not only our soldiers but also young, old, women, babies, children civils..thousands of people...they killed as well as kurdish villagers therefore many innocent kurds escaped to big cities one of them is my neighbour. Even these kurdish people condemn and hate pkk terrorists. In Turkey their leaders name is 'baby murderer'. pkk killed thousands but enough is enough they will pay it dearly. I condemn pkk terrorists.
Müjde Dural
Ankara Türkiye